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Guild Cliques and Guild Leadership

October 05, 2009 :: Posted by - Inquisitor :: Category - Community, Guilds

New WTF Noob logoHello Rawrcast readers and listeners.  My apologies go out to all of you since this is my first column in two weeks.  I have been swamped with work and family and was unable to find the time to sit down and write.  Today, however, I am back at it.  My life has slowed down and that means more columns to come.

Today, I am leaving my normal topic of leveling and addressing something that I have been dealing with in my game play; guild drama.  Stomp has always said to her listeners and to her friends that this is your $15.00 a month and you have to be happy with what you are doing in game.  Well, I have experienced a few different types of guild drama and I thought I would take a moment to enlighten the readers.

One of the worst things to happen in guilds and in WOW at large is the development of guild cliques.  It is like high school all over again, where the cool, in-people get the runs and the uncool people are left in the cold. I was never in the geek, nerd group in high school, but at the same time I was never part of the in-crowd.  I knew them and called a few friends thanks to years of baseball, football, and other sports, but my friends and I were more the middle group.

Well that is also how I play WOW.  I play to entertain myself and as long as I am having fun, then I am happy.  I love interacting with my guild in and out of raids and I thrive on the playful banter and insults that fly on vent.  I love helping out the lower level toons that need assistance from time to time.  I also just like being there as a guild member.  I guess it comes from years of team sports, but I like being part of a team.  This is fun for me.

guild leaders

But, recently I transferred a toon over to a new faction and server and discovered that my toon was not part of the in-crowd.  This toon is a newer level 80 so it is not as geared as many in the guild, but that is no reason for the disrespect.  What happened was that the people who are raiding have their own little clique.  They are the in-crowd and I am an outsider.  So, when the guild messages fly that they are looking for dps or just getting interest levels for runs, I am ignored.

I won’t lie here, it pisses me off.  I have no problem being told that I am not geared well enough or I don’t do enough dps, but for me to offer up my services in chat only to be ignored!  Ouch.  It has happened dozens of times and I do not like it.  No one should like it and I hate to give everyone the bad news, you’re really not cool or powerful or funny or special because you are one of the raiders in a guild.  Get over yourself and have the common courtesy to send messages telling people that you already have a group or you need someone more experienced.

The key however to judging a guild is not by its members, but by its leadership.  All groups, families, companies, etc. have some bad apples. And in this case, the leaders have, without me ever saying anything, attempted to get me worked into some runs.  It is the guild leadership that really sets the example.  Just like in a good company or a team, the leader needs to be out there and showing the qualities that make it great, whether it is a company, team or just a WOW guild.

Let me diverge for a second and give you an example of great leadership from Sunday’s football games.  I am a huge football fan.  Sunday is for football (after church if we did not go on Saturday).  But, I could care less what the Detroit Lions do on a Sunday.  Yet, I listened in with keen interest when the coach of the Lions, after getting their first win after 19 losses, he had a different take on the game.  They had not won since December of 2007.  That is an ouch!  The win was not the end of it though.  They could have celebrated getting King Kong off their backs and hit the bars or having a nice dinner.  Instead, he told them to take a knee, have the team post game prayer and then to go back out there onto the field and thank the fans for their devotion.  It wasn’t him or his team that he was thinking of, it was the fans who make this team great.

detroit lions

Well in a WOW guild it is the leaders of the guild that make it great.  I am still not one of the in-people, and I may not ever be one since I am late to the guild, but the leaders have gone out of their way to try and make sure I am included, not excluded.  Hats off to both of you and you know who you are!

My other guild experience is sort of the same.  I was part of a group to leave one server to join another guild so we could really have a raiding guild.  We were the officers and regular raiders who were leaving.  Well, that experience did not work out and the other guild was filled with problems, so we broke off to form our own guild again.  Nice and simple.

Well, it turns out that many of these people who I have been raiding with for 6 months were really more in it for themselves.  If they or a relative, friend, etc. had an alt, well it would get it leveled as fast as possible and into rotation.  I on the other hand had leveled the aforementioned 80 Hunter and was told that I had to stick with my DK.

They could play what toon they want, what role they want, whenever they want, but me, no so much.  The reason they always gave was that my DK was geared and we needed to get Badges of Triumph.  Well, I love my DK, but wanted to play my hunter.  DK’s in my opinion get boring (Haf don’t kick me off the podcast for this statement) and I wanted something different.  I was told no and I was not the only one that was being neglected or pushed to the side.

Then I discovered another, what in my opinion was an insult, issue with the guild bank.  I was part of the guild at large who were unable to make full access of the guild bank tabs.   I am a founding member of this guild and I was an officer in our previous guild, yet I was limited to getting things out of one tab from the guild bank.  Hello, I put hundreds of gold and dozens of pieces of crap into that guild bank, but I cannot get what I need, when I need it.  Rude!

jack welch

I have never ninja’ed stuff and I only took things that I needed.  I have never taken anything out to sell.  I have never abused my guild bank rights.  Well, there was that one time that I threw in like 140 wool and silk bandages when I was leveling up my first aid hoping that someone might want them.  But, when it was being discussed in vent I took full responsibility.  In other words I should never have been on the outs for this.  It is in my opinion disrespectful, but I am not someone who makes waves so on I went.

Well, I am still part of the guild in name only and I have not played that toon in 2 months.  I miss the people, but not the lack of respect. They were a great group of people who taught me a lot about the game and I thank them for that.  But how you treat your members is a sign of what kind of guild leader you really are.

So, why am I kew kewing it here in my column.  My intent is to educate.  My stories are just 2 of the many millions in the game, but if my stories can help formal and informal guild leaders to lead better than I am all for it.  Will some people just say that I am bitching and moaning?  Yes.  Could I have handled it better by addressing the issue?  Yes.  But, it is my opinion that I shouldn’t have to.

It is the guild leaders to recognize the problems in the guild and to address them.  Cliques are not good for high school and they are not good for WOW.  If you see them happening, go out of your way to address it.  Try to include the newer toons when possible and don’t isolate members because they are not in your normal group of friends.

Now, go and tell your guild leaders that Inquisitor has been Kew Kewing!

  • Masoldier

    The topic at hand will always exist since at the end of the day there is a person controlling that toon or guild. I have some friends who go me into WoW and so i joined their guild. Well sure enough i got to 80 and started doing heroics on my own. The guild was small and most of them take the summer off. Well here we are and its fall i have now been through Naxx 10, 25, Uld 10, 25, ony, 10, 25 VOA, 10, 25, you get the idea. I did leave my original guild to find a guild that fits my needs a bit more than my old one. But i do take the time to run then through NAxx on a reg bassis so they can learn the ropes. On the other hand we have an old guildy that basically refuses to run this old content since he already did it and wants ” more challenges”. Although i left the guild i still try to help the guys out but people are dropping cause of one players elitest attitude and rufusal to help. Drama is drama and it will never go away since we, People, are involved…. Love the show!!!!

  • Dick

    Everything starts with leadership and goes down from there. Poor leadership results in people who are of lesser quality (both in play skill and in personality) being allowed to continue to affect a guild negatively. It’s up to leadership to see beyond themselves and the big picture, to listen to others, and to go out of their way to get info from guild members as to how things are going. So many people think they can lead, people are put in positions of leadership just because they know someone or have been around for a long time, but so few have any leadership, or often even personal skills.

    I did find it amusing you mentioned the Detroit Lions. Having grown up living beside Detroit (but in Canada), their suckage is legendary. So I’m always amused when they get mentioned, because it’s a great example of poor leadership.

  • Topher/Menglor

    I dont know , but your complaint about guildies being selfcentered is echoed in your comments!

    - I want to raid as my hunter , because its my choosing.
    - I want access to the guild bank because I was a founding member!
    - I have arrived! everyone must run stuff for me!

    I am not disagreeing with you that cliques suck, but look at it from the insiders point of view.

    they been in the guild running with the same people, everything is EZ mode, and easy money, I bet they even work well as a Team.

    But you want to come in and force them to take an unknown, “because you arrived”

    Your upset that they are forcing you to take your DK, but how would you feel if the GL suddenly started telling you who to 5 man with? Because its what your asking people to do!

    Its my belief, and I am not trying to be mean.

    But your lazy, You dont want to run a group, you want people to bend to your needs and wants. which is fine in on itself. but if you want to gear up, get 4 other people and do it, if the others are busy, or locked out.

    In my guild, its the same problem, there are a few people who refuse to take the initiative and lead a group because its too hard, Oh we couldnt find a tank/healer …

    To that I say BS, find out who has what Alts, pull from the LFG. but the responsibility of getting geared so you can take your hunter raiding, is on you!

  • Inquisitor

    Thank you for your honest response. You had some really good points and I appreciate them.

    Maybe I was not clear in what I was writing, but part of my point may have been missed. I don’t have any problems with the members of a guild being comfortable with specific members of their regular raids and preferring to run with them. I don’t even mind people telling me that I am undergeared, my dps is not high enough or whatever, but if you are going to send out a general message to the guild that you are looking for people and someone speaks up, then it is common courtesy to tell them that you are full, or you need a higher dps, etc. Honesty is not a bad thing, but refusing to have the respect to whisper back is in my opinion rude. You are asking for responses, then when someone responds you have an inherent and implied responsibility to respond back even if it is in the negative. That was my main complaint, not that I was not included.

    As far as your lazy comment, I think it is misplaced. You are right, I do not want to run a group. That is not because I am lazy, but because I feel that I am not experienced enough to subject the other members of the group to my leadership. I will get a pug together or get a group from the guild together, but my lack of knowledge of the instances and my rather newness to the game precludes me from really leading. In my opinion, one of highest virtues in a leader is when they should step aside and allow others to lead.

    The last thing I would like to address is your thinking that I am selfish in that I wanted access to the guild bank in my first guild. Again, I don’t care if they remove me from access, but it should have been addressed to me directly. For example; if you are an account manager at your job. Your boss decides to remove one of your accounts and does so without talking to you. Do you just accept it? Me personally no, I don’t. I would want to know why it was taken away from me and for what purpose it was give to others. Does you boss have the right to take it away? Yes. Did the Guild Master have the right to exclude everyone from the bank? Yes. But, should there be explanation? You bet your ass there should. That is what being a leader or even just a manager is all about.

    Thanks for your comments. I look forward to more from you and the rest. For now, tell everyone the Inquisitor says: “Hi”

  • Bhigbhiggrr

    Interesting topic and comments.
    I would say we have some of these issue in the guild I run. Our ccore group are very protective of each other and their position within raids. Never happy to see new folk take the spot of long timers, there have been some very voval vent / O chat sessions. Now I can understand their position. I too have my favourite guild mates and often try to run with just those people. But as GM, I also try my best to help include others and set up groups for other people.
    But, sometimes I really have to draw a line.
    EG. You say that you are not particularly experienced an do not wish to subject people to that. But at the end of the day, most people began life with no experience. I had never run a guild, or a raid, and yet when given that responsibility (I did not choose to be GM for the guild, or RL for the raid) I accepted it and did my best. And things have turned out well enough.
    As GM, I take responsibility for help people when required, but my ultimate guideline is that people need to learn to help themselves. And if they can’t, and I have to do it, then they need to put up and shut up with my rules. Otherwise I tell them (quite bluntly sometimes) that they can always GTFO.

    Guild members make a guild. As you said, there are the good and the bad. And also, as mentioned, you need to make the game fun for yourself. I don’t know your specifics, and I’m not in your guild to see what the interactions are, but there does sound to be a bit too much me, my, mine. I think if you pushed aside your concerns about your lack of experience and just tried, you’d be surprised just how easy it can be (and how hard). It’s these hard times that make people do what they’re doing to you.

  • DraftingDave

    A little late to the discussion but here are my two cents…

    #1. WoW is an open world.

    #2. If there is something you don’t like, most likely there is somewhere else in WoW you can go to find what you prefer.

    #3. If you can’t find what you prefer.. DO something about it!

    #4. If you’re not willing to DO something about it, then you have no right to complain.

    I guess i’m a little non empathetic to these type of complaints. Maybe i have more of a survival of the fittest attitude (appose to a care bear one), but if you don’t like the leadership of the guild…leave. If you can’t find a guild with the leadership YOU prefer, then make YOUR own. If you are not willing to make your own, then you have no right to complain.

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